hedge_fun
6 hours ago
Lighten up Frances. I said I agree……
that SFRX should do it, and have suggested it before. MFT offers partnerships every year. Go scan the Atocha or Santa Margarita and prove to the world the tech works instead of waiting on permits. Those sites are fully permitted.
That said, Kyle has stated they will follow the UNESCO model, and you’re admitting that.
Ever heard of Ulrike Guerin? That’s one unhappy woman. She was part of the 2001 UNESCO convention. In my opinion, she would not approve.
She appears several times in this documentary below beginning at the 5:50 mark. If SFRX truly followed the UNESCO model to the letter, all archaeologists on a project would first be UNESCO approved before the project started, and Spain would be involved if they looking for Spanish galleons.
This documentary lays out both sides of the argument between salvors and the academics. SFRX’s position is clear as mud.
In the documentary Hatcher, Gordon, and others are presenting a common sense approach to the future of the industry that the academics like Guerin wish to destroy.
You’re and others are simply pimping stock. Instead of waiting to start scanning Juno for two years, why weren’t they on a known site proving to the world the tech works?
SFRX’s pissed and moaned about the FBAR for over decade. Why haven’t they spoken up with a solution for the industry? Or are they so stupid they think they’ll actually get permission to disturb Spanish galleons from the state?
You totally missed the point, which isn’t surprising.
hedge_fun
20 hours ago
Why would SFRX work with salvors that…….
sell treasure?
Kyle said they will follow the UNESCO model and not sell the treasure. Not that that has been an issue.
Spain doesn’t even want any commercialization of any kind.
Working with QJ’s wouldn’t fit that model.
But hey, I think it’s a great idea.
BTW, has SFRX ever thought of challenging the Abandoned Shipwreck Act and telling the state to shove it?
In light of what the 4th Circuit ruled in Sea Hunt, which was the original owner, unless relinquished by an expressed act, retains ownership forever, how does the state “own” those wrecks?
Essentially, a ship lost at sea isn’t considered abandoned just because of the passage of time per Sea Hunt.
hedge_fun
22 hours ago
Yes, they are grandfathered in. That term……
means what happened before CAN’T happen again.
It’s like when a city says no new billboards. The existing billboard can stay, but there will be no new ones erected.
Team SFRX doesn’t grasp that concept, even when told multiple times by the state on multiple occasions. But don’t worry, they’re special.
Queens Jewels hold the rights in their permitted area, but the state made a claim too and settled on a 75/25 split, I believe.
The rights to the wrecks predate the 1987 ABA, which is why it’s grandfathered.
hedge_fun
23 hours ago
Florida treasure hunters find hundreds of silver coins………
BREVARD COUNTY, Fla. - Florida’s treasure-hunting season is off to a strong start, and Brevard County hunters hit it big time on their first find of the season.
Hundreds of silver coins are now back on land, after they were buried at sea for more than 300 years.
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/never-expect-it-florida-treasure-hunters-find-200-silver-coins-from-historic-1715-shipwrecks
Just trinkets, but there’s this from the article.
When the treasure's brought back to the surface, it heads straight to Guttuso who’s the operations director for the 1715 Fleet Queen’s Jewels LLC.
His company is the U.S. District Court’s custodian and exclusive salvors of the historic 1715 treasure fleet.
Exclusive?
hedge_fun
24 hours ago
Why would they need to scan 1/10th of…….
the site? Do you even think before you post?
The only reason they would is because they have PREDETERMINED treasure is there. But instead of moving on they keep up the fantasy.
You’ve gone from it’s 5 miles from the ballast pile to it’s under the worm poop because the previous so called professionals thought it was hard pan right back to its 5 miles from the ballast pile….possibly.
The mag survey you reference was completed in 2003. Judd hired OCS to salvage the wreck for 2 seasons and they didn’t find squat.
A few years later in 2006 Judd tells the state he is only interested in a small area that salvage expert Bob Marx said he should look at.
The BS tale you’re shoveling once again is that Judd, who was advanced in years, had NO salvage equipment or means to recovery something at 80 feet, which SFRX referred to as deep sea in a recent video, had SFRX looking in the wrong place so he could later keep it all to himself.
It’s the stupidest tale in the entire salvage industry.
If Judd knew exactly where treasure was he could have easily hired real professionals to go and salvage it and been done.
And with all the BS he put up with from the state, getting the ONLY permit in 30 years would have likely been his last chance to do so.
But oh no, he was trying to pull a fast one on Kyle.
That’s the biggest pile of crap I’ve ever heard.
You’re a good fit with SFRX.
Goldenboy17
1 day ago
For those who consistently have a hard time understanding words, I will repeat what I have already stated.
Weather wise, next week should produce 5 days of scanning which should yield – combined with portions scanned already – about half the site scanned.
So, no, they do not have half the site scanned now. But they could by the end of next week was my statement. Again, could.
And in my opinion, that scanning will yield enough information for them to have a target large enough to go after and produce an exciting press release, once targets are discovered and retrieved.
Also, still not an affiliate of SFRX and not AWOL as some have continually wrongly claimed. So these are just my guesses. I'm not here to represent or speak for the company.
A lack of knowledge seems to be a point of pride for some.
Probably why they got stuck with the non-trading .0003 EXPL after it lost over 99% of its value.
#tonnagenottrinkets
hedge_fun
1 day ago
The JBAS is an ever-moving target......Before
the permit was issued, folks were claiming SFRX would not be waiting on the permit IF nothing was there, so they must have already found something. I even said that.
But per the (ahem) update, about half the site is scanned, yet they have no targets to dive on?
So, nothing has been found but the billion$ are coming? Next week is the week.
What real salvors know is you can't "predetermine" something is there. You let the data tell you if something is there.
If you don't correctly interpret the data, while you "predetermine" treasure is there, you could spend 25 years on a site and never find anything.
Just like SFRX and their partners did at Melbourne Beach, which will probably soon be called the Melbourne Beach Archeological Site (MBAS).
Grabbing more popcorn.
hedge_fun
2 days ago
Wasn’t “tonnage not trinkets” the Melbourne……
theme song?
How’d that work out?
Not a trinket, not even one.
Go figure.
I won’t bring up the fact they were working Melbourne when you claimed they weren’t.
Anyway, I have the survey Judd provided for the (ahem) JBAS. I guess you’re suggesting the treasure is once again in the deleted area, but I thought SFRX was suggesting there were LARGE cultural deposits near the ballast pile under worm poop.
If they hit a target large enough, I think they will stop scanning and go after that large target.
You don’t think they’ll scan the entire site and look for the largest hit like S123 said they would for the maximum impact from the first PR?
Regardless, grabbing more popcorn.
At least after 16 years, 8B shares, and nearly $30MM they finally found a recognizable coin. I’m sure it’s not a trinket, eh?
Congrats and GL!
hedge_fun
2 days ago
If the Sunken Military Craft Act had never........
been enacted, it would not have mattered, even in GME's case.
The Sea Hunt (2001) ruling applies to all vessels and property that is lost at sea. If you lost your boat at sea, you and your descendants retain rights forever to your property unless you relinquish them. Just leaving it there doesn't make it someone else's. Of course, if you lost it in certain countries, they could lay claim to it in their territorial waters and you would be SOL, but not in the US.
Bobby is lucky he wasn't fined for violating state and federal law. The SMCA (2004) makes it criminal to disturb such vessels without permission. The Sea Hunt ruling weakened the ASA as far as states owning all wrecks in their waters. The ASA's primary purpose was to stop or slow commercial salvage.
That said, Bobby is a bloodhound. He found 5 other wrecks along with the French ship. That was in a period of about 16 months as I recall. I hate it that he didn't have a clearer understanding.
To your last point, the in-situ preservation (leave it laying there) theory the academics believe in is beyond absurd. Yes, it will be lost forever one day.
There are certain governments that partner with salvors, such as the UK does with DOS. They salvage certain vessels and recover "treasure" that was being transported during WWII. This is the future of the salvage industry, for the most part. DOS is probably the best there is.
https://www.deepoceansearch.com/project/steam-ship-city-of-cairo/
The SS City of Cairo was hit 772km (480 miles) south of St Helena in the Atlantic Ocean and sank to a depth of 5,150m. The effort to raise the 100 tonnes of coins, which belonged to HM Treasury, is the deepest salvage operation in history.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32316599
Odyssey Marine also salvaged the SS Gairsoppa, which was the previous record depth for salvage.
In 2010, the United Kingdom Department for Transport awarded Odyssey Marine the exclusive salvage contract for the cargo of the Gairsoppa. In September 2011, the company announced that it had found the ship.
Under a contract with the British government, the Odyssey will retain 80 percent of the value of the silver it recovers, estimated at $210 million.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/odyssey-marine-recovers-61-tons-of-silver-from-ss-gairsoppa/2132582/
If you're interested, this is the future for shipwreck salvage, if there is one. Glad to help. Feel free to ask any other questions. I'm not an expert, just a hobby of mine.
Happy Friday!
EmpressWanderer93
2 days ago
That explanation was quite complex, but I now have a much clearer understanding of how it works. Thank you for taking the time to explain..
Essentially, it's a grand slam if there's anything valuable at Juno. If not, the company will not likely survive, even if they identified a wreck on their Melbourne claim, which to my understating no ballast pile has been located but rather a large debris field from multiple wrecks.
It's really unfortunate that the Military Craft Act applies to colonial vessels, as it only hinders historical discoveries. I feel bad for Robert Pritchett (GME). Anyone that dedicates so much time, energy and effort should be rewarded not left bankrupt as history continues to decay to time.
hedge_fun
2 days ago
Well, you had an opportunity to respond to......
the poster. You could have explained, as I did that SFRX owns everything at the JBAS.
I even provided the main sections of the Court Order giving full title to everything at the JBAS. You thought it was from something older than SFRX.
I was also responding to his comment about him being new to this.
Instead of a response to me, you could have responded to him and showed the board your (ahem) vast knowledge of how salvage law has evolved from Finders Keepers to it belongs to the state to the owner retains title to their property until relinquished by an expressed act.
Plus, you could have explained how, with title in hand, SFRX shouldn't worry about Spain at the JBAS when without title in hand at Melbourne (MAS), they're telling everyone it could be the Concepcion.
Instead, another bitter comment from someone who wants to pay me to pretend I believe there are billion$ at the JBAS.
Are we about to find out it's all about the archaeology not the treasure?
Hmmmm
hedge_fun
2 days ago
One other thing about the Juno Beach……..
Archaeological Site, or JBAS as SFRX now calls it.
If it is true maritime archaeology it would be unethical to attempt to keep things quiet and hide the identity of the ship. Plus it would not be in keeping with the UNESCO model, as Kyle said they would follow.
Their work, reconstructing the history of the world’s oceans and coastlines, impacts current day coastal management and planning decisions. Much research on underwater archaeological sites is also done to comply with state and federal legislation that protects prehistoric and historic-period resources.
https://dosits.org/galleries/career-gallery/marinemaritimeunderwater-archaeologist/#:~:text=Their%20work%2C%20reconstructing%20the%20history,prehistoric%20and%20historic%2Dperiod%20resources
Further, the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987 (ABA) primarily gave the states ownership to all wrecks in their waters, but the act implied that an owner abandoned the ship. The title to Juno was applied for prior to the enactment of the ABA. Essentially the law of Finders Keepers was still being applied until the ABA was enacted, so Juno belongs to SFRX.
Things changed when Sea Hunt found two Spanish frigates off the coast of Virginia. A district court gave them an Admiralty Claim, which they filed for in early 1998, and Virginia gave them a permit with a 75/25 split asserting ownership under the ABA.
Spain then challenged ownership of the two frigates challenging the district courts ruling for Sea Hunt, and the US State Dept sided with Spain. Spain argued that they never relinquished ownership of those wrecks, and ultimately the Supreme Court upheld the 4th Circuit’s ruling that said owners of wrecks have to through an expressed act relinquish ownership, and it can’t be implied. This all predates the Sunken Military Craft Act, which was really just an add on to what the Supremes upheld in Sea Hunt. It specified warships.
These are the key statements in the Sea Hunt ruling and applies to all wrecks, including someone’s private property.
Under admiralty law, where an owner comes forward to assert ownership in a shipwreck, abandonment must be shown by express acts. See Columbus-America Discovery Group v. Atlantic Mutual Ins. Co., 974 F.2d 450 (4th Cir. 1992). "[S]hould an owner appear in court and there be no evidence of an express abandonment," title to the shipwreck remains with the owner. Id. at 461. This principle reflects the long standing admiralty rule that when "[b)articles are lost at sea the title of the owner in them remains." The AKABA, 54 F. 197, 200 (4th Cir. 1893). When "a previous owner claims long lost property that was involuntarily taken from his control, the law is hesitant to find an abandonment." Columbus-America, 974 F.2d at 467-68; see also Fairport, 177 F.3d at 498; Hener v. United States, 525 F. Supp. 350, 356-57 (S.D.N.Y. 1981). An inference of abandonment is permitted, but only when no owner appears. See Columbus-America, 974 F.2d at 464-65 ("Should the property encompass an ancient and long lost shipwreck, a court may infer an abandonment. Such an inference would be improper, though, should a previous owner appear and assert his ownership interest . . . .")
https://casetext.com/case/sea-hunt-v-kingdom-of-spain
So when SFRX finds the $15B, in keeping with UNESCO which intends to protect cultural heritage, I would expect them to give most if not all they find at the JBAS to Spain.
It’s all about archeology not treasure hunting at the JBAS.
We’ll see about Melbourne. It makes zero sense for SFRX to attempt to work there without Spain’s permission. Plus, it makes even less sense for the state to issue a permit if the salvor thinks it’s a Spanish ship, which is what SFRX has said. I think the idea is that if SFRX is stupid enough to explore the site and try to ID the wreck, they’ll let them explore, but they can’t remove anything without prior permission.
If SFRX went directly to Spain and got permission, Florida would have far less control of the Melbourne Archaeological Site (MAS).
GL
hedge_fun
3 days ago
Most of the records of SFRX I have......
were given to Buc who got them from the state in preparation for the depositions.
Discovery is a wonderful thing.
Plus, Kyle threatened to sue me on multiple occasions, so I have good records of his claims vs the Bureau reports, among other things.
So, you don't have to be upset that I won't come work for and pretend it's all Micah fault. I have my reasons for ordering the reports.
When Kyle says something that's true, I admit it. The Juno wreck belongs to SFRX and no one else. As the Judge said, all future claims are moot.
By contrast, all Spanish galleons and other vessels located in US and International waters belong to Spain, unless they have relinquished ownership, and the finder can provide documentation.
Good luck locating wrecks from the 1715 Fleet. I'm sure Spain will appreciate SFRX spending shareholder on something they don't own and never will.
That's where your focus should be, but it isn't.
Just because Team SFRX, which includes shareholders doesn't understand basic salvage law, it doesn't make everyone else equally as ignorant.
hedge_fun
3 days ago
The State's attorneys determined SFRX was awarded......
title to the Juno site, which is straight from the Final Order on Juno. See below. And I am proud someone is actually thinking things through.
Spain can pound sand. That big ole ballast pile, silver coin, and the other 950 artifacts from Juno belong to SFRX and no one else. SFRX holds the title to Juno.
There is no reason to keep things hush, hush, unless they don't have title, like at Melbourne.
Also, the SMCA was signed into law in 2004, so it wouldn't even apply to Juno, as title was first given in 1988. That's why Juno is grandfathered and referred to as The Last One.
That said, SFRX has stated that their business plan is to loot Spanish vessels that they don't even have title to, which is illegal without Spain's prior permission. That's why they were shut down at the ring area in 2020 when Tim Reynolds instructed them to salvage a dozen or so items. Not that it's a Spanish galleon, but SFRX says in their research report they believe the debris at Melbourne could be from the 1715 Fleet. If you didn't have title prior to the ASA becoming law, as ARS did at Juno, you're SOL.
This is Dr. Parsons letter to Kyle and Tim about the ring area shutdown, but remember, SFRX just renewed the Melbourne permits. This letter shows how stupid their stated business model is.
This is from the Final Order on Juno. Notice on the header it is said it is believed to be Spanish. Take careful notice of 15 in the Order. The title award predates the ABA of 1987.
Also notice the Judge's instruction handwritten to the Clerk at the end. No more claims. The Court awarded what was believed to be a Spanish vessel wreck site. Sorry for the different size pages.
This is from the Florida statutes. See (2), which is why a permit could not be issued by the FBAR on Juno. Judd should have hired a better attorney in the early 90's when he first got the wreck and told the FBAR to shove it, that was his wreck. Same with SFRX.
EmpressWanderer93
3 days ago
Hedge,
I'm new to this field, but I mostly enjoy the history and have paid to play as it keeps me semi engaged.
Hypothetically,
SFRX might have an idea of the shipwreck at Juno, which is from the early 1500s. Finding insurance records or documents from that time would be very difficult. Wouldn't announcing the ship's identity help Spain to claim it, even though SFRX has a grandfathered permit? If Spain can't identify the ship, they can't use the Military Craft Act to claim it. So, what's the benefit for SFRX to suggest they know what wreck is at Juno? I can only see benefits of keeping the ship at Juno unknown.
Thoughts?
hedge_fun
4 days ago
As I said before, I don’t know if……
EXPL will pay off for me or not. It’s not a concern of mine.
If I wanted to dump my shares I could have. I did flip some, but did very well with BWVI, especially after Keith announced the RM. I’m down some on EXPL, but no biggie. It’s not like I put money I didn’t have in it.
Regardless, this is a big reason why I kept some shares. It has NOTHING to do with hype and hope or bullshit valuations. It’s the agreement on the “Primary Target” they made with GMAR, as well as the locating and positive ID of the Connaught, which was carrying a bank shipment.
The Primary Target may have been located in a 2000 square mile survey.
The History Channel paid for some exploration of some these targets mentioned below via the Flight 19 episode.
I’m sure none of this will make sense to a novice. Not saying you are, just sayin’
IP Assets
1) All raw sonar, camera and other data collected by GMAR in connection with the Search Area for the GMAR Primary Target, as identified in item 3, below (the “ Primary Target ”).
2) Analysis reports identifying specific targets identified in the Search area including, but not limited to the location and data for
a) Target 5 (Shipwreck)
b) Target 28 (Shipwreck)
c) Target 39 (Shipwreck)
d) Target 77 (Airplane)
e) Target 64 (Ballast Pile)
3) All Historical research related to Primary Target and other targets including copies of original documents from archives, in Seville, Valladolid, Havana, and other sources. Also including the biography of the builder and owner of the Primary Target.
4) All research and documentation related to legal defense strategy, conservation strategy, and monetization strategy.
5) All research and analysis related to the search box for the Primary Target including the Monte Carlo model, weather analysis, leeway/drift, etc.
SCHEDULE 2
Assigned Contracts
Agreement, dated as of July 1, 2007, with Francisco de Borja De Soto y Moreno-Santamaria.
Non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements entered into by GMAR.
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